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111038-rant-removal-of-timers-overdue
Content ---- ---- ---- There's a huge difference between raiding and doing perfect runs in 5 man dungeons. So much so that there's actual breathing room in raiding, but zero breathing room in attunement (dungeon step) If all you had to do was clear the dungeons (which is what it's being changed to) that's one thing, but unless you're severely over geared for it you're entire party has to pull off practically perfect runs while skipping more base pop than not. | |} ---- Rhetorical question here. If you can't beat all the dungeons fast enough to get a silver, how exactly do you expect to fare against Experiment X-89? | |} ---- ---- This is a joke, right? | |} ---- ---- It's not Can't. It's Choose Not to. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- I don't understand this logic. 95% of the mechanics in the dungeons are "stay out of red, interrupt X cast for MoO". That's it. There's nothing inherently hard about it. The 'hard' part comes in when the timers are so short that unless you know the dungeon in and out and backwards and already have gear that is on the level if not higher thanks to runes, you have to pull off absolutely perfect runs. Can't wipe a single time because the timer doesn't allow for that breathing room. How being able to do this translates to "I can kill boss mobs in raids!" is beyond me. It's one thing to make us complete the dungeons, as when you're going into them blind / for the first few times some of the fights are "hard". It's a completely other thing to add more artificial gating in the form of timers that discourage players from continuing after a single wipe, and encourage players to avoid as much of the base pop as possible. I've raided in W*. A majority of the 20 man encounters are not that much harder than the dungeon bosses. They require more coordination because you have more people, but they're also a LOT more lenient. There's no "finish this raid in 30 minutes or you're closed off from the last 2 bosses" or anything like that. You don't wipe and give up the second one of your DPS dies. At most you'll find a few bosses with DPS checks like X-89, and even then it's more about executing the fight properly and not a DPS check. One shouldn't have to run the dungeons like their raids with a static group learning the fights and running them over and over and over and over until you shave off enough seconds to hit silver. Doing "progressive dungeoning" just to do "progressive raiding" is overkill and is one of the major reason this game is hemorrhaging players. | |} ---- ---- Remember, we've already seen world boss attunement progress getting completely reset due to... reasons. And it couldn't be fixed short of simply giving everyone who was on that step a free pass. Apparently. We don't want a repeat of that with the dungeon step, do we? The quest system is extremely fragile and demands to be handled with the appropriate care... :rolleyes: | |} ---- ---- Why do I have a feeling another month will still result in something breaking? Lol. | |} ---- This guy gets it. | |} ---- Maybe so, but they have to try, don't they? A patch right now... I would predict a break probability of exactly 100%. | |} ---- yeah but let's be honest here. When have they dropped a patch (big or small) that didn't break something else either associated with the patch, or completely separate? Even those tiny little express patches / hotfixes have a record of breaking more things than they fix. | |} ---- Yeah well... I'm just saying I understand the logic in the team's heads behind delaying. Would you, in their shoes, go "hey, we know this most likely won't work as we haven't checked the code all that much, but we'll push it to live anyway!" ? Probably not, you'd instead do what they're doing while praying "maybe this time will be different, we put in all those weeks of extra effort...". | |} ---- I know. I was personally making a cynical joke. Probably their system registers medals but not simply completing. So that could be extra code that could be tricky and might break some other things. | |} ---- I probably would have hired a few more competent programmers and fired a few of the not so competent ones a few months ago, but that's just me. It would probably end up like the world boss progression if it went live now, though - you are right about that. What's that? Your Dungeon attunement was reset? Well, we can't actually fix it and give you the amount you were at previously. We'll just let you skip the entire step! | |} ---- Well I wasn't quoting you this time. ;) Yup. And holy hell, I don't want to imagine the slaughter on the forums if that ever happened. "YOU OPENED THE FLOODGATES FOR CASUAL BADS, THIS IS THE FINALEST FINAL STRAW FINALLY, FOR REAL THIS TIME. UNSUBBED!!!" | |} ---- Haha I know! Was giving my view since I started the cynical bandwagon, lol. | |} ---- Getting silver or gold in dungeons is much less about personal skill and much more about group skill. You could be the absolute best WildStar player, but if you have a terrible group, heck, just one or two terrible people in the group, you will fail. Nevermind the people who pay 50 plat to get run through dungeons, or the peeps who "are just so likeable, I'd carry this guy through attunement myself". How does that reflect on personal skill again? To see if someone can succeed in a raid you have to see them in a raid. Checking if someone is attuned tells you that they hit 50. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- That's a shame, because timers do not equate to good mechanics. | |} ---- If hardcore means being a good player who plays less than 10 hours a week, understanding how to interrupt, rune, and communicate and no exploiting - then GUILTY AS CHARGED. If you cannot beat Skullcano - seriously - that last boss is easy. LRN TO BE MOBILE, JUMP LAZERS, MOVE AWAY FROM TURRETS, AVOID LAVA POOLS. Stop trying to make excuses for being a bad player, there is no other explanation #truthhurts. Not my/Carbines fault you cannot play a game that actually requires a team of 5 to execute an encounter correctly. | |} ---- ---- They are meeting you halfway. *shrug* End Result: *More people will get attuned. *Silver actually starts to become more common because more people know the mechanics. Take the deal. | |} ---- ---- But it doesn't do that, at all. To better put your analogy, it would be like being held back from advancing because you were late to class one day, or because you had a 3.99 GPA instead of a perfect 4.0 That's not how the real world works. How is speed running a dungeon a sign of being a good raider? Surely clearing the dungeon would be enough. Afterall, you still have to work and put effort into clearing the dungeons. Adding an artificial gate (the timer system) in NO WAY WHATSOEVER has anything to do with being a good raider. In fact, it actually hinders a lot of players in that you get the "rush to get it done" mentality, which will cause more mistakes than if you take your time. Maybe, MAYBE if one of the raids had some sort of "kill the first half of the bosses in under 30 minutes and a special room will open to reach Bonus Boss 1!" but they don't. There's no time requirements anywhere else in the group PvE game. None in raiding, none in adventures, none in shiphand missions. So why is it there for the dungeons part of attunement? | |} ---- There's a sizable difference between "getting" what they wanted to do with the game, and "realizing" what they wanted to do doesn't work. Most players - and now finally Carbine - are at the latter stage. | |} ---- You keep saying silver is perfect, when its not, you can die,and you can die alot its not perfect. I got silver as a tank dieing on the last boss mid fight. You are acting like you have to get gold. | |} ---- ---- ---- I don't care what they were trying to do. It didn't work. | |} ---- ---- ---- I want to sit and pick my nose for a minute before we start on a boss. Hey they started, we wipe, we miss silver. In a Raid it's fine. One minute is nothing. | |} ---- How is this even remotely a comparable concept? You can go from having never been in a dungeon to silvering it within a day (provided you do 1-2 practice runs before hand). Yet it takes most guilds weeks to get a single boss down in GA. | |} ---- Most silver dungeons are completed with 15-20 minutes to spare... one, two, or even four wipes will not ruin your chances. Stop being so dramatic. If you're bad, then you cant raid anyway. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- Only you're assuming an awful lot about me. And you're wrong. I'm fully attuned for GA. I'm ready to raid, but I need 19 more people to raid with. And the simple fact of the matter is people do NOT want to even try timed instances. And the game is bleeding out players at an alarming rate. Unless you're perfectly fine raiding on your own...? | |} ---- Um, silver is for attunement/extra drops raiding is for... raiding/boss drops. We already cleared our silvers easily and on top of that they're already nerfing attunment to bronze, why are threads like this still around? With the amp/ability up changes coming I can swear I'll soon hear "Gold in dungeons should be the new bronze, not dying is too much! WE SHOULD GET GOLD FOR ENTERING THE DUNGEON". | |} ---- Not a direct assumption about you. However, if people can not complete current silver dungeons, it can be fairly assumed that A) they are not capable of staying out of red stuff. and B ) They do not have high enough dps to complete said silver dungeon. If you do not have the required DPS to complete a silver dungeon (which, despite everyones crying, is INCREDIBLY easy. Most can be 3 manned), you definitely dont have the required DPS to raid. Yes, there is a minimum dps requirement to kill X-89. Hell, there's even a minimum dps requirement to kill the mini bosses. And Kuralak? Forget about that. If you meet the dps requirement to kill X-89, silver dungeons would literally be a breeze. So reducing the requirement to get attuned will cause absolutely nothing but more crying. The game is not bleeding out players. It's bleeding out kids that throw fits when BiS isn't handed to them for logging in. The rest of us are quite happy here. | |} ---- Dungeons are completed in a group. Just because a group can't do Silver, it doesn't mean anything about any particular player in that group. Maybe 4 were excellent and the healer or tank were bad. What the relaxing of the Silver requirement will do is allow solo players the chance to actually try to get attuned. Heck, maybe there'll be a time when people might actually try PUGing Raids too. Anyway, if your guild, or any other guild, wants the requirement to have people do Silver runs before they Raid, then just enforce it. No one is stopping you. | |} ---- But it's not "hardcore chest beating". It's a plain (IMO) fact Silver timers give you enough extra time for 2-5 wipes depending on the dungeon before the timer is over. I see here people going "but but we know the fights and wildstar dungeons are easy yet we still can't silver". That makes me wonder, where the hell do they spend all that extra time? Coffee breaks every 15 minutes? It's simply impossible combination that a group would kill every boss on the first try and still not make it to the silver timer if they keep going and don't hold more than 2-4 min in breaks. Only thing possible is that even though they "know" the fights they still keep on wiping more times than "allocated" on the timer. And this is where the silver requirement comes into play. Consistency. Let's take example on the first GA boss, experiment. On average you could prolly take on 5-10 goes per hour here depending on how fast you're running back and how many breaks you have to take etc. On average you'll get around 1-4 bombs per pull to place / jump out with. The dungeon timers are actually pretty flexible since they allow 5 persons to make ~2-5 bad mistakes per hour. Five people making 2-5 bad mistakes per hour at the first boss would mean that they would on average wipe half of your attempts. Second boss is even less merciful and a single bad mistake usually cascades into a wipe / many others dieing or having to compensate on the go. The example is a bit over simplified but it should tell the point. In raiding you need pretty much everyone to keep focused for the whole duration of the fights & raid. People who can't be bothered to stay focused long enough to complete one silver dungeon are unlikely to be "pulling their own weight" at raids. If you make whole raid groups of such players it's very unlikely they'll ever progress far (if any) @GA. | |} ---- ---- Staying out of red and having high DPS is a requirement to clear the individual dungeon boss fights, which will get you bronze. The difference between bronze and silver is not more DPS or not standing in red. | |} ---- There already are timers on raids... The 'easiest' boss in GA (exp. X-89) is on a pretty quick timer. Sure rather than it being a need to beat him fast enough to get a medal; it's him physically destroying the ground you can stand on, eventually full-wiping your whole group if you don't complete him fast enough.... but a timer is a timer. | |} ---- ---- Actually that remains to be seen. The discussion of that theory will continue until the changes to attunement happen and people with "bronze screening" begin raiding. Do keep in mind that everyone not attuned by the time the patch drops will get "bronze screening", even people that have not tried the current silver screening. | |} ---- ---- ... and again, having silver in dungeons doesn't tell you about that person's skill level. Not when you can get carried through. Except for a few mechanics, if you have a warrior or engi pull 7k or 8k DPS the other two DPS could be dead on the floor the whole fight and everyone would still get silver. You could tell more about a person's skill if you see them e.g. solo the CB daily area, including the spider queen, Rotter, and the (Exile) Dregg holdout. That tells you if they know how to dodge, if they have sufficient skill to interrupt, high enough DPS, know when to heal, and all that. | |} ---- Maybe engi is too strong, but your examples are easy-peasy even in crafted gear :D I think a good way to gauge ability is to take someone into a few dungeons and things and observe them. Monitor their DPS, moves, damage taken... etc | |} ---- Hey nazin, pretty easy from what I see it's a simple bossfight i doubt I'll face any difficulties with. My self confidence on the matter originates from the fact i know im on par or better with people that got past dungeon step and killed it in my guild. As successful as the thousand others that got past it with, but I appreciate your two pence on the matter nevertheless. I doubt u were still at step 5 when i dinged 50^^. I'd like to refer you to the last person I've quoted and then back to my original post. see quote one So hold it right there. You say I'm required to execute, but what if i tell you that I'm always the first on rupting and i do inteerupt fast and without error- also I'm either first or second in those five mans on dps.(3+k is fair enough single target) And what's that GA you talk about? If it's meant to be Grim awakening, I was part of that shard first(part from countless others) Furthermore this mob skipping, what to pull, which packs to skip.... why is it impossible to go the direct way(map design?) to the boss IN TIME? skipping mobs is something i went to, when i far outgeared places or just got fed up grinding a dungeon, its not something the game design should require you to do. This is how i feel about this and it's of course highly subjective, but what gives you the right to tell me : "you dont deserve to raid" What elitist kind of behaviour is this? Do you have any reference of my skilllevel? Do you know me? Unless you do, how about feeling a bit self aware and realise that even if you effing not, there's countless people raiding that actualy did NOT deserve it (exploits). I think I at least deserve a similar shot. Thank you for being the fist voice of reason in this thread and a person I'd gladly guild over with any day than the above quoted. Dungeons - Adventures - Warfronts Are grind content, meant to make you able to may your elders out of raid content. So why is it, that this needs to be harder than experiment or the miniboss in raids. no i really do not want to practice a dungeon two months. As said before artifical prolonged end content- end of discussion as my quoted friend said | |} ---- ---- I totally agree with this, but it's very interesting, that those players that are still attracted and defending wildstar, are those impolite people, telling you it's your fault and how easy it is for them to do anything. This community is one of the worst(!) that I've encountered in my entire mmo life, offending people, ninja looting(basically anything in dungeons) and their elitist arrogance let's me only deduct those people are either mentally challenged or haven't grown any pubics just yet. If you would just take a minute to look around yourself, the signs for their lack of fixing things are a foreboding sign for future issues. I haven't even bothered starting wildstar at this point anymore and i will cancel my sub on this if need be or if i get the remote feeling this is taking to long. Now can anyone tell me, why it's so hard to improvise and change the timer to +20 or 30minutes or heck just set the time to 500? I'm by no means a programmer, but the timer value has been adjusted before, why nor simply raise it MORE for now?? This shouldnt take longer than their intern needs for coffee, yet still they wont do anything till next big drop. I'm done with waiting and expecting and im a million times more sure that this "improvised fix" i just mentioned would've saved you most of the shit storm. Fix it now and show us you listen, maybe? | |} ---- There are some cool people but this game brings out the worst in the human condition. It shows what people are and unfortunately it's the way of the world. It's just sad that a game is suppose to take you away from the world, not mimic it. You have someone from a top raiding guild calling someone the N word out of frustration. I'm sure they sponsor this type of behavior, trying to be the community leader and all. | |} ---- This isn't possible because you're misunderstanding the planned fix. The timer for silver isn't getting removed, the requirement for attunement is being nerfed to bronze medal (which has no timer at all). Raising the timer to 500 or whatever would devalue silver medals. I don't know why/how the bronze requirement change takes so much time, but it's just not the same as changing numbers. | |} ---- I do see this point and I agree, it would devalue silvers (it's disputable wether skullcano was devalued before though by the exploits and "my" fix would obvious be temporary) but this takes us back to what people keep saying: it was stupid to put this barrier to begin with. Silvers and gold should be something i wanna work towards but what for? crafted gear is better anyway... @the search: I just refuse to steep as low as the mentioned people. Being friendly and helping does rarely cost me anything and gains me a lot. Someone from a leading guild calling someone the n word is ripped out of context though. It's childish and he probably regretted it later as well, if not only for saying it publicly. I personally think that the community is one of the biggest issues at the moment. just take a look at the first comments in this thread. it's exactly the kind of attitude people have that votekick you in the dungeon before loot is rolled. | |} ---- ---- Yes we're turning in circles and my attempt to come up with something to patchwork it, already seems better than what we have. So the real problem remains: artifically prolonged endgame content. Making me run in a circle for three months is not going to ensure happy customers. | |} ---- Lol this attitude... You're not looking out for others for their own good. You're just trying to keep other kids out of the sandbox, even though the "sandbox" isn't just a single sandbox and you're likely to never even speak with said kids, let alone play with them. | |} ---- All due respect, I'll believe you when it happens. Even as the easiest boss, X-89 is a major challenge for groups. Not only is there an absolute timer in terms of how long it takes to kill him before he drops all the platforms; not paying attention or a single player gunking up expedites that timer. Add in the small / large bomb debuffs which some folks just don't get and it is a LOT more difficult than running a vet dungeon for silver. Silvers force an individual player to meet at least a minimal level of TEAM COORDINATION. You won't always have perfect players on your team even in raids; learning to work with others constructively is a MAJOR SKILL that needs to be developed for success in raids. Is it going to be impossible for bronze attuned folks to raid? Of course not.. but you will find a LOT more under-prepared players than you did with silver attunements. I haven't seen any real hardcore players make statements like that (usually they are too busy playing). Hardcore in MMO's has never been an issue of better versus worse players; it's always been an issue of playtime. MMO's, unlike action / adventure games are built around time investment and social activity rather than difficulty of content. Even the most difficult content in an MMO pales in comparison to that in difficult single player games. It's the necessity to work with many other people and coordination and the time needed to develop that which seperates the hardcore from the casual in MMO's. | |} ---- That's because this game was advertised as hardcore so a lot of people in raids feel like that automatically makes them better players or accomplished when the only difference between those that are raiding and those stuck is mostly having a stable group. A lot of people who can't make the weekday evening raids due to RL commitment have already quit as are those that got to 50 during headstart and found they can't do anything except waiting for others to catch up. This game would do much better as an F2P game when there are actually enough people for most players to find a stable group to clear the attunement and run dungeons. Unfortunately it's in a negative feedback loop of losing players right now where those without groups would leave, leaving others without people to run content with. | |} ---- ---- I über horse is now in my vocab thank you lol (side note ) | |} ---- I'm not asking them to change anything other than removing timers. Players should not be punished for taking their time, and rushing through content should not be rewarded/encouraged. Players who want to farm rewards will rush content on their own, without blatant encouragement to do so by the Devs. I'm not even particularly concerned with Attunement; I'm simply opposed to timers being implemented in the reward system in general. Therefore the deal that you're telling me to take is not "meeting me halfway." | |} ---- I agree Vick.. but at the same time there ARE punishments for taking your time in raiding in W*. If the point of attunement is to prepare players for raids, then it would logically follow that coordination and completeing content within a time frame woudl be one aspect of attunement. I've been using X-89, arguably the easiest boss in GA as a good example. He has an absolute timer; by which if you don't kill him fast enough he insta-wipes the group and you have to start all over again. The argument that raid timers are somehow different because you can redo bosses for up to a week before reset just doesn't cut it. You can redo dungeons ad infinitum until you get silver, so it's a non argument there. I personally would like to see raids and attunement timer-less; but as long as there ARE timers on raid content I don't think having timers in some parts of attunement is unreasonable. YMMV | |} ---- You make a good point, and I can't really disagree that it presents a logical progression. I'll just keep hoping for their complete removal. I'm just stubborn like that. :rolleyes: | |} ---- If I may be so bold, I would actually prefer to see the opposite of timers in raids. in the Touhou Bullet Hell series (example on Lunatic mode); there are two main ways to defeat bosses. You can take their health down a set amount to end their 'spell cards' and progress, or you can simply survive the spell cards for a certain amount of time. This works in Touhou because even on easy, the spell cards are incredibly hard to survive. If Raid bosses had telegraph sets as difficult as Touhou's spell cards, it would be quite cool to have a 'pacifist option' where if your group survives for lets say, 1:30 min on a preposterously intense telegraph pattern, that automatically progresses your team on the fight. At least, I think that would be a pretty interesting thing to see. Maybe have most of a boss be classic tank n spank / raid mechanics, then at a certian point you just have to survive something nasty with a countdown. Couple this with drops after the countdown timer as well as after the defeat of the boss, and that would be a cool way to reward skilled groups, remove the traditional timer set up while still keeping an element of timed play in the raids, make the 'hardcore' players feel better about raids requiring some serious skill, and would diversify the experience beyond just a DPS race IMO. | |} ---- Those are the kinds of nontraditional mechanics I like dealing with. I also saw a boss fight suggestion at one point for another game where the boss would start out with high defense / low offense and gradually transition to low defense / high offense. I thought it was an interesting concept, because the initially high defense challenges optimized DPS groups to kill the boss before she got too far into the offense stage (where they'd have a hard time surviving), while the gradual transition into low defense and high offense gives an opportunity for tankier groups to simply pace themselves and focus on staying alive. I liked it simply because it was a single mechanic that catered to both types of groups. | |} ----